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How to Fail the Technical Interview and Still Get the Job with Nyaradzo Bere
52:37 with TreehouseThis talk discusses the things employers truly want to see when interviewing & how you can land the job even if you never actually solve the problem at hand.
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[MUSIC]
0:00
All right.
0:07
>> Hi.
0:08
Can you hear and see me okay?
0:10
>> Actually, Hal,
I can hear you just fine, yeah.
0:12
And yeah, I'd like to welcome everyone to
how to fail the technical interview and
0:15
still get the job.
0:21
So, I'd like to welcome up this
session speaker, Nya Bere.
0:22
Nya Bere is a software engineering
professional who began coding in
0:26
the spring of 2020.
0:30
And after obtaining her bachelor's in
business administration that year,
0:32
she decided to switch course and
pursue development.
0:36
Now, six months later, Nya received a job
offer from Comcast, NBC Universal and
0:40
now works to aid others with their
transition into software engineering.
0:44
Her passion for helping to increase
the number of women and people of color in
0:49
the tech space drove her to create her
YouTube channel the black female engineer.
0:54
Here, Nya shares her experience learning,
job hunting and other career insights.
0:59
When she is not working, Nya enjoys
spending time with her two year old baby
1:05
brother, whom she describes as the light
of her life, and building apps that
1:10
she believes are necessary today revolving
around social justice and activism.
1:15
Wonderful.
1:20
So, everyone please welcome Nya.
1:21
>> Hi, everyone, let me share my screen.
1:24
Thank you so much for
the amazing introduction.
1:27
Okay, can you all see this?
1:31
I don't know if I can hear somebody else?
1:33
Let's see, let me go.
1:36
Okay, I think you can see this.
1:37
So, if you can, but yes,
my name is Nya, welcome to how
1:39
to fail the technical interview and
still get the job.
1:44
This is something that, yeah,
happened to me specifically.
1:50
But, yeah, now I share content on
YouTube as the black female engineer.
1:55
But as shown that was a very
different situation last year for me.
2:00
So, last year I had just graduated
with a dual major in accounting and
2:06
finance, that's truly just
where I just saw myself being
2:12
throughout college, even before college.
2:16
I gained career insights and
experience at places like Bank of America,
2:20
EY, big four and five banks and
accounting firms.
2:26
And I just constantly
did not like it at all.
2:30
I always loved the companies and
the people I was working with, but
2:34
the work, I was like this is not for me.
2:39
And so in spring of 2020,
the spring I was set to graduate,
2:42
that is when, as you all know,
the world decided to shut down.
2:47
And it became very apparent to me that
I was graduating in one of the worst
2:52
economic climates we've seen.
2:57
And I kind of used that as an excuse
to kind of go a different way,
3:00
because I was interviewing, I was getting.
3:04
Actually, I wasn't getting interviews
with the business routes and everything.
3:06
Because, yeah, there were just no jobs,
people were laying off workers.
3:12
And here I am, 22, being like,
hey, can I get a job here?
3:15
No, you cannot.
3:20
So, decided to start learning how to
code really just to learn something
3:21
during the whole pandemic, not really for
the career switch specifically.
3:26
But immediately, immediately,
immediately, loved it so much.
3:32
And I would spend days on days just 4
AM learning and building static sites.
3:37
And within a week I was like,
okay, we need to make a change,
3:45
something needs to happen.
3:49
Let's, yeah, let's see how we can do this.
3:51
So, I joined a coding boot
camp in June of 2020 and
3:53
graduated October 2nd of 2020.
3:58
And by the end of the month of October,
4:01
I signed an offer with Comcast NBC
Universal as a software engineer.
4:03
And now I just try my best to share my
experience, share tips and advice and
4:07
insights, and really anything people
ask through my YouTube channel,
4:13
The Black Female Engineer.
4:18
And so let's back it up a little bit and
talk about the job hunt.
4:20
If you all are going to the job hunt
right now or you're about to, or
4:26
you plan to sometime in the future.
4:30
I'm pretty sure you've seen
that the consensus is it blows.
4:32
It is not fun at all.
4:37
And a lot of times it's because of that
4:39
technical interview portion
with this line of work.
4:42
And it's something that when I
was going through the job hunt,
4:47
I was going through it
while still in boot camp.
4:51
And I was kinda just mindlessly applying
left and right, to be completely honest.
4:54
I was more playing the numbers game
just trying to get it out there.
4:58
And then I stumbled upon what for
me was just my dream job,
5:03
truly just a focus on training, and
teamwork, and actual innovation.
5:07
And I just stopped everything and
was like, okay, come hell or
5:14
high water,
we are gonna make this happen somehow.
5:18
And so started really applying myself
with the studying for algorithms and
5:21
understanding time-space complexity and
all of this.
5:26
Because if you remember just four months
ago, I graduated with finance and
5:30
accounting.
5:34
So, it really was a quick turnaround
of having to learn all these things so
5:35
I can get that job.
5:40
And I shockingly for me, just because
when something is so big to you,
5:41
you kind of, I don't know,
discourage yourself a little bit.
5:47
And, yeah, shockingly to me,
I got a first round interview and
5:52
then got a second round interview and
then got a third round interview.
5:55
And the third round was the last and
final round.
5:59
And that was where I was going to
be in that technical space, in the,
6:03
yeah, technical interviewing,
and I was scared beyond words.
6:09
And I was just like, you know what, this
is the job, this is what I have to do,
6:15
let's get it.
6:19
I'm sorry if you hear just
like a helicopter flying by.
6:20
[LAUGH] But yes, it was time for
the technical interview.
6:23
And I, long story short,
got a zero out of 70 on my
6:27
technical interview in terms of
the score I got for my solution.
6:32
HackerRank looks for very specific
things in terms of how to score and
6:39
all of that, and for them, I failed.
6:44
I got a zero out of 70, and so
I saw this score and I just,
6:47
I was like, shoot,
honestly I can leave now.
6:51
Don't even bother talking to me.
6:56
I'll go, I know where the door is.
6:58
But because of how I went
through the problem and
7:00
showed them how I can problem solve and
how I think, I ended up getting
7:04
the job offer literally 20 minutes
after the interview was over.
7:09
Which is something that,
yeah, you can see me smiling.
7:14
Something that I could
have never imagined, and
7:17
it really was the best day of my life.
7:20
And so when I looked back into, yeah,
7:23
I got the score and yet
I got this amazing offer.
7:26
There's a disconnect here.
7:32
And so I looked back and realized really
7:34
pinpointed what I did and
even elicited there.
7:39
Really, it came down to how I broke down
the problem, not only in thought, but
7:44
in procedure and a couple of other things.
7:48
And so let's get into them.
7:50
Do these four things.
7:54
One, breaking down the problem,
inspecting your inputs.
7:56
Two, maintaining efficient and
proper coding procedure.
8:00
Three, if there is a roadblock,
go around it.
8:04
And four,
keep the company's goals in mind.
8:07
Now, we're gonna go through
all of these one by one.
8:12
But I am sure, especially if you are going
through the technical interview right now,
8:15
you've received tons and
tons of advice and tips and everything.
8:20
And I'm not saying abandon those.
8:24
Those are all, most of them,
great tips and things to follow.
8:26
But I realized these are things I
did that no one really talked about,
8:30
maybe except for number two.
8:34
But yeah, other than that,
no one really talked about until
8:36
I got the feedback that that was really
what made the decision for them.
8:40
And so to go into this, I'm actually going
to provide you all with a little problem.
8:45
We're not gonna go too deep in solving it,
so don't worry.
8:49
But let's look at this problem.
8:53
At Treehouse Theme Park,
8:55
visitors want to maximize the time
they can spend enjoying the rides and
8:57
activities in the park, while minimizing
the time they spend waiting in line.
9:01
We would like your help
implementing a feature to help park
9:07
goers tailor their Treehouse
experience to their needs.
9:10
We want to calculate current wait time for
each ride in the park.
9:13
This will help park visitors
decide which rides to enjoy.
9:17
So, pretty simple and everything.
9:22
But if you've seen any of
these problems before,
9:25
you know that typically there's
an overarching goal that they state.
9:28
And then it really goes into specifics,
which really is where the trouble happens.
9:33
So, let's do that.
9:37
So, you are given first
the number of rides,
9:39
array of strings representing rides.
9:43
Each string includes the ride's title,
the ride's type,
9:47
like a coaster, simulator,
water ride, etc.
9:50
Ride length in minutes, number of seats,
and current number of people in line.
9:54
So, an example would be a string
of Despicable Me Minion Mayhem.
10:00
Comma, simulator, the right type, 4,
the right length and minutes, 20,
10:05
number of seats, 30,
current people in line.
10:09
And that is one string.
10:12
And we get this in an array of
a bunch of these different strings.
10:15
So, imagine an array of 30 of
these exact different strings.
10:19
So it comes down to two parts,
the calculations and the sorting.
10:24
So on the calculation side,
10:30
you need to complete the function
getWaitTimeEstimates,
10:32
which will organize the rides based
on their ride type and wait times.
10:36
Then, you need to calculate
the estimated waiting time for
10:41
each ride using the given formula.
10:46
So okay, simple enough,
this calculations, like okay, we got it.
10:48
Then there's the sorting, which really
is where the cantor words comes in.
10:52
But first, you need to sort the rides
in alphabetical order by ride type.
10:56
Within each ride type,
11:02
sort rides by estimated waiting
time from shortest to longest.
11:03
For rides with the same right type and
wait time,
11:08
sort them in alphabetical order by title.
11:11
Print the sorted list of rides with
each ride's title, ride type, and
11:15
estimated waiting time.
11:19
Now, we're not gonna go into this.
11:21
We're not going to try to solve this.
11:23
But this is just an example of what you
could see in a technical interview round.
11:25
And here,
we'll practice the things I listed before.
11:31
So if you remember, number one was break
down the problem, inspect your inputs.
11:36
This is something that really will show
your interviewer that you understand
11:42
the need for things to be presented
in the most efficient way possible.
11:49
And the reason this specific point is so
11:55
important is because in technical
interviews, it is so, so
11:58
easy to just jump right in and
try your best to solve this problem,
12:02
especially when you see this ticking
time bomb, that is the clock,
12:07
staring at you, and trying your
best to just get as far as you can.
12:12
However, with this, we're taking a step
back and we're looking at our inputs.
12:16
So if we go back here,
our input is this right here,
12:20
the Despicable Me Minion Mayhem,
Simulator,4,20,30.
12:23
This right away, you can tell,
is not the most proper
12:27
way to present any type of variable or
elements or input,
12:32
because really right here,
we have three sets of numbers in a string.
12:37
That's going to be really hard to use in
terms of calculating things like wait time
12:43
and all of that.
12:47
So right away, you can tell that,
okay, something needs to happen here.
12:48
Then we see that there's
just different information.
12:52
And when we look at the sorting, we're
gonna have to sort by type and name and
12:55
all of these things.
12:59
And to do that, you kinda need to be
able to have these things broken up.
13:00
So by inspecting your inputs,
you could right away before you even,
13:04
I know it's not even part
of the problem itself, but
13:08
take a second to say to your interviewer,
you know what, I appreciate this problem.
13:12
But before I even get to the solution,
13:17
I understand that this is not the most
efficient way for me to get these inputs,
13:20
because, how can I calculate
with these numbers?
13:24
How can I organize and
sort when all of these are in one string?
13:27
So by doing a simple formula,
I'm not gonna go too deep into it, but
13:31
doing a simple formula called makeArray,
this isn't JavaScript by the way,
13:36
makeArray(rideString) which is
a string that we get first.
13:42
And then making it so that each number
is actually recognized as a number,
13:46
not a part of the string.
13:51
And so that's where this comes in,
the parseInt, parse integer.
13:53
And so the output ends up being,
Despicable Me Minion Mayhem,
13:56
in its own string, comma Simulator
in its own string, and then 4,
14:01
20, 30 represented as numbers.
14:05
And so what ends up being, because
this is just one of the strings, but
14:08
in a real world situation, we'd have,
let's say, 100 of these, what it
14:13
ends up being is an array of arrays or
an array of all of these different things.
14:18
And this right away just shows
the interviewer like, okay,
14:23
this is a type of employer that
even in high stress situations,
14:26
they understand when
something's not right here.
14:29
And It's so easy to come into
interviews with a mindset of,
14:31
I need to finish, I need to get
the answer, erase that completely [LAUGH].
14:37
And instead, come into these
interviews with a mindset of,
14:45
let me show them the type
of employee I would be.
14:49
Let me show them the type of developer,
the type of teammate, I would be.
14:52
And I'm going to be saying this a lot of
times, so that it really sticks with you.
14:55
But yes, showing them that even in
high stress situations, I can stop,
15:00
I can wait a second and say, something's
not right here, and make things just
15:04
the easiest to work with, because coding
can be hard enough, we don't really need
15:09
to make it that much harder by working
with things in this type of manner.
15:13
So yeah, then increase this output.
15:17
So now, we can get into the problem.
15:20
So number two, maintain efficient and
proper coding procedure.
15:23
Again, we're showing them
the type of developer we are.
15:28
Even in high stress situations, we wanna
make sure our code is easy to follow.
15:31
And one way to do that if we look here,
with our calculate wait time equation,
15:36
being able to make sure that
your variables are descriptive,
15:41
being able to break things up and not have
a single, because wait time here could
15:44
have been calculated in a single
by saying, by the way, 4, and
15:49
by the way 3 and 2, and calculating all
together and Math, floor and all of that.
15:53
But by breaking things up like this and
naming things this way and
15:58
making sure that your functions
are just a couple of lines long,
16:02
it makes it so that even if you showed
your mom, your father, your brother,
16:07
this equation, they could probably get
the gist of what you're doing here.
16:12
They may not understand the code behind
it, but they can understand what you're
16:17
doing, like, you're getting the
lineLength, and now you're getting seats,
16:20
and now duration, and now you're using
these things to get your wait time.
16:25
And so that's a really easy test,
making sure that you
16:28
are maintaining that proper procedure,
is by asking yourself,
16:33
could someone see this even without
a computer science degree or
16:38
anything and get the gist of
what I'm trying to do here?
16:43
And so in high stress situations,
again, it's so easy to just say,
16:48
I'm just trying to solve the problem.
16:52
But no, let's show them that we are a
person who understands the importance of
16:54
keeping things simple,
because in the actual work environment,
16:58
odds are you are not the first to
get this type of assignment and
17:02
it's not going to stop with you.
17:06
You're going to hand it off to someone.
17:07
You're going to hand it off to
maybe even people not even part
17:09
of the engineering team, and
now they have no idea what you have here.
17:12
And so, we don't wanna be the person
that make things harder for
17:17
everyone else even if we got the answer.
17:20
Then number three,
if there's a roadblock, go around it.
17:24
With technical interviews,
we're trying to show them our skill sets.
17:29
We're trying to show them how we problem
solve, how we go about fixing problems.
17:34
But we can't really do that if
we spend ten minutes stuck on
17:38
a specific calculation or
anything like that,
17:42
because now all those ten minutes
that we could have used to
17:46
backup additional points is
used on this one little thing.
17:51
And that's not good.
17:56
So if there's a roadblock, go around it.
17:57
Let's say we did not have
the calculation for wait time.
18:00
Let's say they did not give it to us.
18:04
In this specific problem,
it was actually given.
18:05
I don't think I gave it in this
specific deck, but it was given.
18:08
But yeah, let's say they didn't give us
wait time, and let's say in the stress of
18:12
what we're in right now, the calculation,
we just forgot seventh grade math.
18:17
Seventh grade algebra has escaped us,
let's figure it out.
18:23
One thing you can do after spending,
let's say, two minutes trying to remember
18:26
what we typed was,
you can end up putting commas in,
18:30
okay, due to lack of the formula for
wait time, I will generate a random number
18:33
between one and
ten to act as the wait time for visitors.
18:37
Because this is something that
we can't really skip because
18:40
it is going to affect the rest of
the problem if you remember it.
18:43
We're going to be sorting by
wait time in x, y, and z,
18:47
so we need to have this,
we can't just move on.
18:50
So being able to say, you know what, I'm
gonna create a random number generator,
18:53
and this will serve as wait time,
because the thing is, on the job,
18:57
you could have easily just looked this up.
19:00
There's Google, and
many developers, not even many,
19:02
everyone googles and looks things up and
reads and all of this,
19:06
to find the answers they're looking for,
because it's not all about what you know,
19:10
it's about how you can find the answer,
that's really what the wait is on.
19:16
And so, yeah, saying, you know what, let
wait time be this random number between
19:21
one and ten, and return that number,
and that is what we will use.
19:26
So, of course,
not every time you have a roadblock,
19:30
it can be solved with a random
number generator, but
19:34
take a second to think how you
could just kind of go around it.
19:38
And then if you do have time at the end,
you can go back and
19:42
[INAUDIBLE] all over again.
19:45
But we're really trying to get as many
points from all these different places as
19:47
possible to show them
all of our capabilities.
19:52
And then number four, keep the company's
goals and objective in mind.
19:56
With technical interviews, and I think
this is something that I didn't realize
20:03
until I was actually at interviews,
because with hackers and
20:08
with leak codes and everything,
there To random problems you get.
20:11
But with technical interviews, a lot of
times they are giving you this problem
20:15
based on the specific work that team does,
based on the specific objective of
20:21
the company, or based on specifically what
they would give to you when you get there.
20:26
And so show that you understand that
because we are more than just coders and
20:32
programmers, we're people, we are
developers we're trying to problem solve.
20:37
And so show them that you understand
there's more to this than just
20:43
getting the answers.
20:47
And so
I'm gonna share two ways to do this.
20:48
So we got the problem we see that it's,
yeah, calculate wait times so
20:52
that the park runs efficiently and
all of this, right?
20:56
When you finish reading the problem and
the requirements, saying out loud to
20:59
your interviewer saying, wow, this is
actually a really exciting problem.
21:04
Especially given the times right now
with COVID and the pandemic wanting to
21:09
make sure that things would run as
smoothly as possible to decrease chance
21:13
transmission rates and decrease
possibilities of exposure and illness.
21:18
And making sure that people are having
fun but also everyone is staying safe or
21:23
as safe as possible.
21:27
So I'm really excited to get into this.
21:28
And then you go into inspecting
your inputs number one.
21:30
And so being able to just take a second
and show I am a person, I am a person who
21:33
understands why you're giving this to me
and understands why this is important.
21:38
And then if you don't say it in
the beginning because of stress you
21:43
can even say it in the end or
say it again in the end.
21:48
And say it in a way of okay, so
now that we got the solution or
21:52
now that we're done with this problem,
one thing I would like to
21:56
see is how the operations teams
deals with these numbers,
22:01
deals with wait time and
this list of rides.
22:06
Shortest to longest wait time every month,
every quarter, every year and
22:09
sees how to best restructure their theme
parks and their operations based on this.
22:13
That's something I would be interested
into keeping up with if I were a part of
22:18
this organization.
22:22
Boom, like pretty simple, right?
22:24
It's just a one to two
sentence showcase of you
22:26
understand that it doesn't stop with you.
22:29
And I think that's something that can
sometimes take a second to realize or
22:32
even until you're actually at work to
realize that you're developing and
22:37
you're completing projects.
22:42
That's great, but you're not going to
complete this assignment and then we're
22:44
going to make you a whole campaign based
off with it or make it live right away.
22:49
It goes to someone else.
22:53
It goes to either another developer but
22:54
it also goes to whole other teams
marketing teams, operations, accounting,
22:57
trying to see what rides are worth
the money and which ones aren't, or
23:02
which ones needs to be replicated
because the wait times are so long, etc.
23:06
So being able to show that,
no, I am a team person.
23:11
Yes, it says on my resume but let me
also show you this by showing that I
23:14
understand that I am just
a piece of this whole goal and
23:19
I will do what it takes to make sure
that this company achieves those goals.
23:22
So that's yes, number four.
23:28
And bonus, if you have the time, refactor.
23:30
After you finish going through your
solution even if you did not complete it,
23:35
even if you did, ask,
23:40
can I get a like about three minutes to
look back at my solution and just improve?
23:41
And go back to your code,
23:46
see if you did name things the way
you'd like it to be named.
23:48
See if you have functions that are just so
long that you need to break them up and
23:52
take a second to refactor, but
also make sure you're expressing this.
23:58
Make sure that you say,
actually looking back I see
24:03
that I could have used this type
of function instead of this,
24:07
just trying to figure out how to
make things better for everyone.
24:12
And so that's a great way to again
show the type of developer you are,
24:17
show the type of teammate you are.
24:21
You're a person who you want to
make sure you provide the best
24:23
quality work possible.
24:27
It's not enough for
you that you've got it right,
24:30
it's the manner in which it's presented.
24:32
But again, it's a bonus.
24:35
Sometimes you don't have the time,
even if you ask them for more time,
24:37
there's tight schedule, etc.
24:40
But see if you can.
24:42
Now, I know that was a lot.
24:44
[LAUGH] I know that was so much and
so do you have any questions?
24:46
I'll stop sharing because I
can't really see you all.
24:51
Well, so if I've been talking to myself,
I'll find out now, but
24:54
I'll stop sharing and
see if there are any questions.
24:58
I think there's a Q&A portion here.
25:02
Let's see.
25:06
How did you know you're ready for- wait,
that was three days ago.
25:12
Are there any questions?
25:18
I don't know if moderators can tell me?
25:20
Let's see Yeah, all of these
are a day ago, the ones I see.
25:33
Hey.
25:45
Let's see.
25:51
I'm going to add a moderator here.
25:53
Let's see what happens Nothing.
25:57
Okay.
26:11
Let's see, can someone, let's see.
26:16
Okay, let's see.
26:23
No.
26:26
Someone has a question or
a chat to put in.
26:33
There should be a Q&A
question you can put that in.
26:38
Let's see I see there's a session chat.
26:47
Okay, thank you, Liz.
26:55
[LAUGH] Okay.
26:58
I was going to Q&A, okay, is it bad?
27:05
Get it to work.
27:12
Is it bad to try a naive
implementation first, or
27:13
try to work in more advanced functions for
a challenge?
27:18
It's not bad, the thing is,
if you try an advanced function and
27:24
then you can't live up to it or
you can't really complete it.
27:31
Then that doesn't look great if there was
a naive implementation that you could have
27:37
done and
all of this would have been fixed.
27:41
And so, my own experience is to
go straight quickfire answer.
27:44
Show that you do not want
to over-complicate things.
27:52
That's not really, and
correct me if I'm wrong,
27:55
I'm sure there's different
people with different opinions.
27:58
But to me that's not really
impressive that you over-complicated
28:01
something that could have been very
easily achieved by doing x, y, and z.
28:05
And so go for the naive and
then in the refactoring portion then say
28:09
I could have also done x, y, and
z and go into that solution.
28:14
But also you also wanna be careful
because then we can't complete
28:19
that solution then that's kind of
what the interviewer is stuck on,
28:24
what he leaves with in terms
of their impression of you.
28:28
So just be careful.
28:32
I say if there's a quick answer,
if there's an easy answer, go for it and
28:34
don't look back [LAUGH].
28:38
What are your favorite resources for
practicing coding challenges?
28:39
My favorite was LeetCode.
28:43
I really liked LeetCode because I have
tried a lot of different resources but
28:45
a lot of them If I didn't know the answer,
there was no way for me to get it.
28:50
I would have to pay to see the answer or
things like that.
28:55
But LeetCode I think is extremely
simple with being able to sort problems
28:58
by easiest to hardest and
also being able to see.
29:03
Even if you solve the problem, see this
discussion portion of, okay, so I stopped
29:06
it like this, but there's hundreds of
other people who solved it like this, and
29:11
being able to learn from one another.
29:15
And so when I didn't solve the problems or
when I just couldn't,
29:17
I would still go to that discussion
to understand how it was solved.
29:21
But when I did, I would still go to
see how I could have been better.
29:25
And so I loved LeetCode for
that because that was completely free.
29:29
They of course have portions
where you can pay but
29:32
you can really get a lot out of
it by just the free version.
29:36
What's your YouTube channel?
29:44
It's called The BlackFemale Engineer.
29:45
It's like that and then space BlackFemale
as one word and then engineer.
29:49
And so, it's pretty easy to find.
29:55
I share my journey I share
more about coding boot camps,
29:58
specifically in the quick turnaround and
also job hunt tips.
30:03
Not just technical interview but
getting even an interview and
30:08
how your resume should look and
things like that.
30:11
So go check it out if
you'd like more insight.
30:14
Then when it comes to getting
your first interviews, is it more
30:20
important to build personal projects
versus more algos and data structures?
30:24
So, personal projects are important for
getting the interview.
30:29
Then when you get the interview, start
practicing algorithms and data structures.
30:34
Because personal projects
they're how companies vet you,
30:40
I didn't have a computer science degree.
30:45
And so especially being able to see okay,
30:48
this person didn't take the traditional
track but are they still skilled?
30:52
Isn't that's where the personal
projects really come in?
30:58
And so yeah, it's not really
a question of either or it's more when?
31:00
So first focus on personal projects and
then when you start getting interviews,
31:05
start practicing with algorithms and
data structures.
31:09
Because that's also a good way of seeing
if your personal projects are up to
31:12
par with what people want,
what companies want to see.
31:16
Or you start seeing you're
getting interviews,
31:19
it's a good indicator of okay,
so I think I can call it a day,
31:23
I can pause on the development and
all of that and switch sides here.
31:28
Let's see.
31:33
Do you recommend?
31:36
I neither,
besides this is the question do you
31:40
recommend doing a technical
interview prep program?
31:44
I did not use one so I can neither
recommend nor make you not do it.
31:50
I know AlgoExpert is a common
thing with people and everything,
31:56
but I didn't use it, especially
because AlgoExpert is cost money and
32:02
I had already paid a couple of grand.
32:08
[LAUGH] On a coding boot camp.
32:11
And so
now I just really wanted the job and
32:14
wanted to just use as much
free resources there are.
32:16
And there's so many,
especially now in 2021.
32:18
There's so many free resources
from the sites like leak code and
32:21
code wars,
to YouTube channels that go into like
32:26
how to solve the Fibonacci series
questions and things like that.
32:29
So, to me, they're not necessary,
but I can see how paying for
32:34
an actual program can make
you feel more accountable and
32:38
more driven to actually pursue and
stick with your study you're studying.
32:42
So you just need to ask yourself,
yeah, what type of person are you?
32:48
Are you a person who needs to
have that money commitment to
32:52
actually stick with it?
32:56
But to me at least, start with the free
resources, and then if you see that
32:57
they're not good enough, then find
a program that you think is best for you.
33:01
Let's see.
33:08
Sorry, it just keeps refreshing [LAUGH] so
33:10
I'm trying to make sure
I'm not missing ones.
33:13
Okay, JavaScript and
JavaScript can be frustrating.
33:16
How do you get past Roblox
when first starting out?
33:20
You just got to do it.
33:25
It's a terrible answer, but I remember
hating the code so much or just practicing
33:26
so much I would get all this anxiety
because I knew I was gonna know nothing.
33:33
I knew that but that's part of the
process, you know nothing until you don't.
33:38
So you just have to keep on practicing
with JavaScript finding resources.
33:44
I know like Udemy has a lot
of different courses,
33:49
Code Academy has a lot
of different courses.
33:53
But when it comes to just practicing,
you kind of have to either, one,
33:57
go with and this kind of goes
with the previous question,
34:02
go with the project side of saying,
you know what,
34:06
I'm going to set out my mission
of creating this dice roll game.
34:09
And I'm going to stick with it for the
next month and even when I'm frustrated,
34:13
even when I'm upset,
I'm going to keep going.
34:17
Because I think where I kind of got things
wrong was when I would get frustrated or
34:19
when I wouldn't know something.
34:23
I would take it as okay, so I'm not
good enough I need to keep learning,
34:25
I need to keep studying,
I need to just keep reading the book.
34:28
That's how you learn, not knowing is
how you learn because as a developer at
34:31
a company at Google you're going to be
Googling how to figure x, y, and z out.
34:36
And so, you need to learn how to
develop that skill of saying, okay,
34:42
I don't know something, so,
let me find the best way to find it out.
34:46
So, understanding how
best to ask questions,
34:50
which resources to best go to to get
through the parts you're stuck on.
34:53
And then getting through it and then
getting stuck again and going through that
34:58
whole process of asking and
reaching out to people and all of this.
35:02
You have to get stuck you have to learn
how to find the answer because when you're
35:06
on the job,
it's not that everyone knows everything,
35:11
it's that they know how
to find the answer.
35:14
So if you take away anything from this,
35:17
take away that,
just learn how to find the answer.
35:21
Let's see Are you a full stack developer?
35:28
If so, how important is the design of
your project front-end versus back-end
35:33
functionality when it comes to
interviewers looking at them?
35:37
So I practiced.
35:41
I'm not a full stack developer anymore.
35:43
I'm solely front end,
I'm mostly front-end but
35:45
in the boot camp it was full stack and
so I did build back-end and front end.
35:49
And they say don't judge
a book by its cover, but
35:54
we are not perfect people and
we do judge books by their cover.
35:59
And front end development is as
necessary as back-end development.
36:06
So you want to show that
you are capable of both,
36:11
especially when it comes to your job hunt.
36:13
You don't have to be an expert at both,
36:16
there's definitely something
you can lean on more.
36:18
I personally leaned more with front end,
I just appreciated it more.
36:20
The design I find it just more
interesting and fun for me.
36:25
So there's one you can prefer more but
you want to show proficiency in both.
36:28
Because if you're on a team or someone
needs help or x, y, z, you wanna be
36:33
able to contribute, you wanna be able to
be that team player and help people out.
36:37
And show that, okay,
when the time gets tough I can
36:41
rise to the occasion and
fix this bug in the back-end.
36:46
So, they're important in the sense
that you want to show you can do but
36:52
you can put on your resume,
specifically prefer back-end development.
36:58
Here are the projects I've done that shows
x, y, and z, and taking it that route.
37:04
But it's nice if things look pretty,
because again, we're imperfect humans and
37:11
a lot of times people
judge things by the cover.
37:16
And then when you're in interviews,
37:20
you can go into a lot of the back-end
functionality and impress them with that.
37:21
So yeah, again, it's more of a thing
of when and where but then either or.
37:25
Are you self taught or
did you attend a boot camp?
37:31
I attended a boot camp, I attended
Flatiron School from June of 2020
37:37
to October of 2020, so about four months.
37:42
It was late June to early October,
so about four months full
37:45
stack about 40 hours' time and
so they're not messing around.
37:49
[LAUGH] And then there was another about
10 to 20 hours put it in after boot camp,
37:54
just to practice to study for for
exams and study for assignments and
38:00
projects and make sure that
my portfolio is really good.
38:05
Because I was very career minded
of I'm getting a job now.
38:09
I already have spent so
much on this boot camp.
38:16
I just graduated from this whole other
career I need immediate returns.
38:19
And so I spent a lot of time making sure
my portfolio projects were up to par.
38:24
And so I really enjoyed my boot camp,
but it is a personal preference.
38:29
It is not fun to spend 10s
to $20,000 on something
38:36
that's going to last about
three to six months.
38:41
So my advice is to start
with self teaching.
38:45
See where you really need the help and
38:49
understand this is why
I'm going to a boot camp.
38:51
For me, I went to a boot camp
because I needed a teacher.
38:53
I was just coming off of college,
I needed a teacher,
38:55
someone to guide me and so
that's why I decided to go that route.
38:59
Let's see.
39:07
And I'm pretty sure there's like
three in here that I missed
39:08
between the refreshing and whatnot.
39:13
If you'd put in a question that I haven't
answered, please put it in again.
39:16
When adding sites to my portfolio to
companies found on WordPress sites or
39:24
using bootstrap, do they want to see
sites built completely from scratch?
39:30
I personally, recommend trying to use
39:38
bootstrap because a lot
of people are these days.
39:42
Bootstrap is one of the leading CCI and
so, I personally
39:46
recommend doing it so
that you have that under your belt.
39:51
You know what I mean?
39:56
You wanna be able to put
that on your resume and
39:57
give yourself the best job possible.
39:59
Because I don't know if you have
a computer science degree or that's your
40:01
educational background, but if it's not,
you really want to just give yourself
40:05
the best shot by saying look, I know I'm
not from the, This traditional path but
40:09
look at all I can do, look at all
I've done and take me please [LAUGH].
40:14
So I personally would recommend
trying to do Bootstrap and
40:19
do they want the site
completely from scratch?
40:22
No, you don't need sites
completely from scratch.
40:25
You can put on your resume this is
the portfolio project I did specifically
40:29
contributing to this functionality.
40:34
Because that's also something,
to be honest with you,
40:36
that I also kind of got
wrong in this whole process.
40:40
Because in boot camp, in self teaching,
you're building things from scratch,
40:44
you're building the back-end,
you're building the APIs.
40:47
And then you're putting in your CSS from
plain white to something that hopefully
40:50
will impress them.
40:55
But when you are hired at a company,
good project has been there,
40:57
it has been there, and
it'll be there after you're gone.
41:02
And so that was a big learning point for
41:07
me having to understand how to start
on an already existing project.
41:11
That took a lot of time and I'm still
working on that for me to best understand,
41:17
because there are certain
company standards like everyone,
41:22
we need to make sure we code like this.
41:26
And now we have nice code that we can
tell is nice cuz it looks nothing like
41:29
everybody else's, but it's right but it's
not up to par with what companies do or
41:34
how they do function, things like that.
41:39
And so I think that's a great
skill to have, being able to say I
41:42
actually added this functionality
instead of I built from scratch.
41:46
And so if you can do both.
41:50
Yeah, so that was a great question.
41:53
What were the biggest challenges
you faced during boot camp?
41:58
The speed,
just to give you an idea not to scare you,
42:03
but just to give you an idea.
42:08
I started out with a cohort of 15
people I believe a smaller because
42:12
COVID had just hit so
42:16
people were kinda taking the backseat
with big financial decisions like that.
42:18
But I started with a cohort of
15 people ended with seven.
42:23
Yeah ended with seven, four months later,
42:28
each different because
they're separated by modules.
42:30
So each module, two to three
people just kind of being dropped
42:33
off along the way,
not because they couldn't do it.
42:39
I do not believe that they fell behind
cuz they couldn't, it's the speed.
42:43
It is the speed, you can't have
a job [LAUGH], you can't have a job.
42:49
You can't have these
different requirements or
42:53
these different people expecting
things of you because for
42:57
this one because it was full time there
are part time ones there are online ones.
43:01
But for this one,
you needed to devote everything.
43:06
I actually moved back
in with my parents so
43:09
that I wouldn't have to worry about rent,
worry about food.
43:11
I claimed the whole basement area as
my own and they would barely see me.
43:14
So it's something that because of
the speed you need to take away
43:18
everything else,
eevery other distraction if you can.
43:23
And like I said, me,
that was my number one goal.
43:27
I didn't care about anybody
[LAUGH] else during that time.
43:31
That was my number one goal.
43:34
And so I did take away everything else to
make sure I gave myself the best shot.
43:35
But it is the speed, so
practicing and preparing beforehand,
43:41
because they give you
like a curriculum and
43:45
the path that you'll go over the next 16,
15 weeks.
43:49
And so being able to before you even
start, practice those things and
43:53
try to get ahead of things.
43:56
And so I'm really glad I did that
especially practicing with just building
43:57
static sites.
44:02
Because I noticed a lot of people were
able to just build apps and everything.
44:03
They weren't able to make it look nice
because we barely focused on CSS,
44:09
we barely focused on styling or
Bootstrap, we barely touched those.
44:13
Because it's also hard to teach.
44:19
And so I was glad I focused a lot
on learning that beforehand.
44:21
Okay, I think we have one
more thing left maybe.
44:25
For algo, Lord,
okay [LAUGH] are there particular
44:30
patterns that you practice
with them most or you?
44:35
I practiced all of them because I don't
know what the company's gonna give me.
44:40
So you really just want to practice
all of these different things.
44:45
You don't want to, of course, it's not
fun being a jack of all trades but
44:48
master of none.
44:53
But you don't want to focus on one thing
and then you go into an interview and
44:54
they give you something else.
44:57
And you realize you focused so
much on just this one section,
44:58
you don't even have a clue about this.
45:02
And so I would really to be honest,
just alternate,
45:05
I kind of just would go down the list of
the different problems that LeetCode gave.
45:08
So I'll try to run through
these next ones quickly.
45:13
What are some things to look for
when researching boot camps,
45:15
especially curriculum?
45:18
If you're looking at curriculum,
what do you wanna do?
45:21
Is it enough for
you to just be a developer and get a job,
45:25
and you'll figure out the rest later,
and figure out the specifics later or
45:29
do you want to be a front-end developer?
45:34
Do you wanna be back-end?
45:36
Do you wanna be in cybersecurity,
game development, etc?
45:37
So, if you're looking for
things like curriculum,
45:41
ask yourself what you wanna do.
45:45
And then like I said most,
45:47
if not all of them do post that curriculum
that they are going to go over.
45:49
See what then matches for you.
45:55
In general, what things to look for
when researching boot camps?
45:57
Really just see how well it meshes
with you in terms of financially,
46:00
in terms of time wise, in terms of
looking up reviews, and things like that,
46:04
trying to see how best
in matches with you.
46:09
How's the transition from learning at
a boot camp into working at a real job?
46:13
Did the things you learned
at boot camp prepare you for
46:17
working with a real employer?
46:19
It taught me,
46:21
yes, in terms of the first thing they
teach you is we teach you how to learn.
46:22
So don't think of it as they're gonna
teach me how to be a developer,
46:27
they're gonna teach you how
to be a software engineer.
46:31
They're gonna teach you how to learn,
46:34
they're gonna teach you
how to solve problems.
46:36
And that's the biggest takeaway from boot
camp is how do I solve this problem?
46:38
I don't know this now, but you better
believe by end of day at 5 o'clock,
46:44
I will have the answer for you.
46:48
And then how's the transition?
46:50
The transition was hard because,
but not bad hard to be honest.
46:51
It wasn't bad hard, but it was still
difficult because I had worked the last
46:57
four to six months of working on my own
projects, building things from scratch.
47:01
And now I'm supposed to be
on a team making sure that
47:06
I am contributing to
already existing projects.
47:10
And so when I get this ticket,
that's what they call it, assignments.
47:14
I get this ticket that says, hey,
there's a bug here figure it out.
47:20
I look and I have no idea what's going
on in this function because I don't know
47:24
the product that well.
47:29
I don't know what this whole thing
encompasses because I wasn't
47:30
part of the building from scratch of it,
you know what I mean?
47:35
It's here now, but
this has been here for two years and
47:40
now I have to figure out
what's wrong with it.
47:42
So that's really where I got to tuck on,
and it's a skill that you learn quickly,
47:44
I will say you will learn quickly,
but it is still just difficult.
47:50
But it's a great experience,
I've loved my transition and everything so
47:55
don't let that scare you please.
47:58
Then for newly learned developers,
would you recommend working remotely or
48:01
in person as the first job?
48:05
To be honest now, especially now,
a year out, companies have found a way to
48:10
still facilitate teamwork and provide
resources to you even if you're at home.
48:15
And so I honestly didn't mind
that I started work from home.
48:20
And for me, it was a personal preference.
48:26
I prefer to work from home, I actually
found out I'm gonna be in office
48:30
in like eight weeks, I'm like, [LAUGH]
okay I should do like work from home.
48:34
And companies?
48:39
Of course, in the first three to five
months, companies were in a bit of a bind
48:39
trying to figure out how to still
facilitate that type of teamwork.
48:43
But no, they have found a great way to
do it where you honestly don't feel like
48:47
you're missing out.
48:51
They have slack channels,
they have meetups or book clubs or
48:52
being able to say, hey,
can somebody go on a call with me?
48:56
And you share your screen and they have
all of these tools now where a person can
48:59
draw on your screen and say,
make sure you do this function and
49:03
like it's not a whiteboard,
on your VS code and everything.
49:06
So they've found great ways to still
maintain that type of standard.
49:09
So I wouldn't worry about it, I don't
think there's a either or for good or
49:13
bad it just goes to personal preference.
49:18
Is it important to have a technical
background when going into this field?
49:23
No, I did not.
49:26
[LAUGH] I did not, I hadn't coded at all,
at all before spring of last year.
49:27
And so it's not like I had majored in x,
y, and z or I had done this.
49:34
I mean it's great if you do and that will
probably help get away some of the kinks.
49:38
But I didn't but
the thing is because I didn't I
49:43
made sure to be as dedicated
as possible with this.
49:48
And if you don't have a technical
background, just start.
49:53
Just start, try with different languages.
49:57
I started actually with Python and
realized it wasn't really for
49:59
me because I didn't really like how
you couldn't immediately see results.
50:02
Which is why I ended up going to more
front-end before starting the boot camp.
50:06
And so no, just start and
see where your problems are,
50:09
see what you need and go from there.
50:14
Really just keep up checking
in with yourself and
50:17
checking in with your learning journey.
50:20
Can I practice algorithms for
one or two hours daily and
50:25
practice coding the rest of the day?
50:27
Well, of course, really what it comes
down to is what is your timeline?
50:29
What is your timeline for getting the job
or whatever you're doing this for?
50:34
For me it was getting the job and
my timeline was yesterday.
50:39
So, it really comes down to what's your
timeline and making every accordingly.
50:44
So if your timeline is I want to
join a boot camp and do that for
50:49
four months and
then within two months have a job.
50:53
Well then you need to make sure you're
spending 40 to 60 hours a week learning
50:57
and developing and
building projects and doing algorithms.
51:01
All of them are equally important.
51:04
I don't know if you specifically
were here when I said this, but
51:06
it's not really a matter of if I do this
or this, it's a matter of when I do this.
51:11
So practice with just learning
how to do if statements and
51:17
regular functions then go on
to trying to build projects.
51:21
And then once you start building projects
and adding things to your resume and
51:25
building that portfolio,
then go into algorithms.
51:30
Because even in front-end development,
you don't really truly need algorithms.
51:33
That's not something that's do or die,
but in an interview, they may still ask.
51:38
And so making sure that you have that
down for interviews and everything.
51:44
So being able to see what your
timeline is and go from there.
51:49
Thank you so much for your time.
51:55
Thank you, Darien.
51:56
Where can I follow you on Instagram,
YouTube, LinkedIn?
51:56
Instagram is @theblackfemaleengineer,
52:00
YouTube is The BlackFemale,
BlackFemale one word, Engineer,
52:03
and email is
theblackfemaleengineer@gmail.com.
52:09
So hopefully that covers all of it and
that's easy enough.
52:13
But yeah, follow me,
DM me if you have more questions because
52:18
now I love just letting
you all in on some things.
52:23
>> Great, well, Naya, thank you so much
for sharing your inspiring journey and
52:26
other great technical interview tips.
52:31
And everyone be sure to check
out Naya's YouTube channel,
52:33
as she mentioned The BlackFemale Engineer.
52:35
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