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In this interview, author C.C. Chapman discusses his experience working with clients - including Coca-Cola, American Eagle Outfitters, and HBO - and how preparation and professionalism can improve your relationship with clients and lead to future work.
Learn more about C.C. Chapman at his official website and on Twitter at @cc_chapman.
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[? music playing ?]
0:00
Hey everyone!
0:05
Welcome back to Treehouse Friends.
0:06
I'm Dan Gorgone, the Marketing and Business teacher at Treehouse,
0:08
and we're joined today by author, C.C. Chapman.
0:11
C.C., thanks for coming, man.
0:14
Psyched to be here.
0:15
All right. C.C. is an author of a couple books,
0:15
"Content Rules" and "Amazing Things Will Happen."
0:18
He's worked with some huge clients around the world—
0:21
talking about HBO, Coca-Cola,
0:24
American Eagle, Country Music Television, right?
0:26
Yep.
0:29
In addition to a whole bunch more.
0:30
What we want to talk about today is your experience with your own companies—
0:34
Okay.
0:39
—and with these big companies, as well.
0:40
So can you tell us, how did you get started in this industry?
0:42
Well nobody told me I couldn't do it.
0:45
I was working at a college doing digital marketing and decided
0:48
that I wanted to move on to something else.
0:52
A friend of mine was starting and agency and said, "Well come work for me."
0:54
It was a small, 9-person shop.
0:57
This was at the height of social media,
0:59
and we did a lot of virtual world projects.
1:02
One of the biggest projects I ever did that I'm still very proud of is we brought
1:05
Coco-Cola into Second Life back in the day—
1:08
the Virtual Thirst project.
1:10
After a little while, I realized—you know what—I want to start my own agency.
1:12
So a friend of mine got together, and we started The Advance Guard
1:16
and just started doing it—
1:19
working with clients and doing projects that we believed in,
1:20
both from a creative standpoint but also a strategic standpoint,
1:24
and we just kept doing it.
1:28
It was one of those things where we were determined that we had the skills
1:29
and the knowledge to do it, so we started doing it.
1:33
No one—I have a computer background—a CIS degree.
1:36
I don't have a marketing degree,
1:40
but I knew enough about the industry.
1:41
I taught myself.
1:43
We had done years of indie filmmaking and Guerrilla stuff.
1:44
So I'd done it before.
1:48
No one said I couldn't. >>Right.
1:51
That's what I always answer with.
1:52
And is that something that you hear from other entrepreneurs out there—
1:53
that when they reach that point,
1:58
and certainly it's a tipping point for some people—
2:01
Uh-hunh (affirmative).
2:03
—where they're working for someone else
2:04
and then they decide that they're going to work for themselves.
2:06
>>Yeah.
2:08
What was it specifically that really pushed you where you said,
2:09
"I'm not gonna do this anymore. I'm gonna be my own boss."
2:15
What it really boiled down to—at least for me—
2:18
was I was working with great people,
2:20
we were doing great work,
2:23
but what it came down to me was
2:24
we got to a point where I had a different business take on things—
2:26
a different approach to whether it was getting clients
2:30
or the way we went after new hires—
2:32
everything—I just had a different approach to it.
2:35
The tipping point for me specifically was actually our agency was struggling.
2:36
We were to a point where we were tight on cash and everything,
2:42
and for me—I said,
2:45
"You know what, if I'm gonna starve,
2:46
I want to be the one responsible for the hunting."
2:47
Basically I want to starve on my own terms.
2:50
I didn't want to have to depend on anybody else.
2:51
That for me was the moment where I said,
2:53
"All right. I'm going to take the jump and do it."
2:55
It was scary.
2:57
I didn't know what was—
2:58
6 months from then I could have been in a really bad place.
2:59
But I was determined to hustle and work really hard to make it happen.
3:02
Uh-hunh (affirmative).
3:07
A lot of our members are designers—
3:08
Uh-hunh (affirmative).
3:10
—and developers.
3:10
They are out there freelancing—
3:12
>>Yes.
3:14
—consulting.
3:15
They're starting their own business or they're working with others—
3:15
>>Yeah.
3:19
—on their own—just like you're talking about.
3:19
One of those huge struggles is finding clients.
3:21
Yeah.
3:24
So what was the experience like when you broke out on your own
3:25
and had to get clients,
3:29
and what are some of the tips that you can give to our members?
3:31
It's my least favorite part of doing business.
3:35
It really is.
3:37
Uh-hunh (affirmative.
3:38
I am not a salesman.
3:38
I don't enjoy that part of it.
3:40
I really don't.
3:41
I enjoy doing the work.
3:42
Thankfully, I had partners who enjoyed that part.
3:43
>>Uh-hunh (affirmative).
3:46
What it really boils down to, especially in today's world as a freelancer,
3:46
is make sure your work is as good as possible because old-fashioned
3:51
word-of-mouth is still the best way to find clients.
3:55
When somebody says, "Hey, I'm looking—I need a designer."
3:58
"I'm looking for a developer."
4:02
You want to be the top of mind to as many people as possible.
4:03
Right.
4:06
So where that plays in—you can't work with everybody.
4:06
>>Uh-hunh (affirmative).
4:09
But you can—whether it's building a blog
4:10
or whether it's being out at events,
4:12
the more people you know,
4:15
the bigger your network who know your work—
4:15
>>Uh-hunh (affirmative).
4:17
—the easier it will be.
4:18
But then again, you have to get out there and hustle.
4:19
Put yourself out there.
4:22
Look for people talking about needing work or
4:23
if you see a site that you don't enjoy or you think could be made better,
4:26
go up to the people and approach them.
4:30
Say "Hey, have you ever thought about this?"
4:32
>>Uh-hunh (affirmative).
4:33
It's gonna be a lot of doors being slammed in your face sometimes.
4:33
Yep.
4:38
It's not knocking on doors anymore.
4:38
It's sending an email.
4:39
It's not that hard.
4:40
Don't be afraid.
4:41
Don't be nervous.
4:41
The only way you get better at it is doing it.
4:42
Like anything else—you have to keep doing it, keep doing it.
4:46
I'm still working on getting better at it.
4:48
Well you've worked with all kinds of different clients—
4:51
>>Yeah.
4:54
—big ones and small ones—
4:55
>>Yeah.
4:57
—and everyone in between.
4:57
From what I've heard from a lot of people,
4:59
and I've worked with clients, as well,
5:01
is that 2 of the things that really make a huge difference are professionalism
5:04
and preparation.
5:09
Yeah.
5:11
When we think about working with clients,
5:12
if we're not doing those things,
5:15
we're really delivering just kind of a lousy experience.
5:16
>>Yeah.
5:21
We're not doing the best that we can do.
5:22
What can you say about professionalism and preparation?
5:23
The thing I always talk about—
5:27
I borrow a phrase from this CEO—Jason of GORUG,
5:28
who always talks about under-promise and over-deliver.
5:32
>>Uh-hunh (affirmative).
5:34
If it goes the other way, you're in trouble.
5:35
But—yeah—being professional is critical.
5:37
That's not—it doesn't mean you have to be in
5:39
a 3-piece-suit all the time and carrying a briefcase.
5:41
It's just conducting yourself in a professional manner—
5:43
responding to inquiries in a rapid pace,
5:45
delivering a project plan that makes sense.
5:49
hitting your milestones,
5:52
doing things—simple things like that.
5:53
Even—I see it a lot with design and development
5:55
because I hire web designers
5:57
to do projects for me.
5:58
The real professional ones will say,
6:00
"Well here's the timeline."
6:01
"Here's things I'm going to need from you," so I know what's expected of me.
6:03
That's critical because it is hard, especially in today's world,
6:07
where there are a million freelancers out there right now doing what you do.
6:11
You might do it better, but how do I know?
6:15
Everybody's got a website.
6:18
Everybody says they do all this great stuff.
6:19
Everybody has that great client list—
6:21
>>Right.
6:22
—they say they've done great work for.
6:23
But how do you actually know?
6:23
It's really quickly—especially if it's just over email—
6:26
you've got to be—that's hard to—
6:29
Uh-hunh (affirmative).
6:31
—the professionalism.
6:32
If all the sudden they say, "Hey, can we get on Skype and talk,"
6:33
which is what I usually do before I hire anybody.
6:35
You can instantly tell—the professionalism quickly—
6:38
if I'm talking to you and you're in a Starbucks yelling and screaming—
6:40
>>Yeah.
6:44
—there's nothing with that—
6:44
but be careful about it.
6:45
Yep.
6:47
You mentioned a few things that can really set some of these people apart.
6:48
Designers and developers know that—
6:52
they're all kind of fighting over those same SEO—
6:56
Yeah.
6:59
—keywords.
6:59
Yeah.
7:00
When people are searching for best designer in this town—
7:00
>>Yeah.
7:04
—or best developer or this particular type of project that clients are looking for.
7:05
It's kind of—you need something that is
7:08
going to set you apart from all the fish in the sea.
7:12
When it comes to pitching big clients—
7:16
Yeah.
7:21
—and approaching those.
7:21
We can do stuff for our friends and family
7:23
Right. Right.
7:25
—and the guy down the street.
7:26
But when it comes to Coca-Cola or HBO
7:27
Yeah.
7:31
—or those guys—
7:32
how do you even get close to those guys?
7:32
How do you pitch them?
7:35
How do you get involved with them?
7:36
My best advice, especially for your audience
7:37
is HBO or Coke are never going to go to a freelancer.
7:40
They're just not going to.
7:44
>>Right.
7:45
What they're going to do is they're going to have their—
7:45
their agency is going to come to freelancers.
7:46
What's tricky about that—because the bigger the company the more agencies
7:50
they probably have.
7:55
In today's world, even sometimes—
7:56
this is going to sound so crazy.
7:57
But they'll have a traditional media agency, a digital media agency,
7:59
sometimes a social agency.
8:02
>>Uh-hunh (affirmative).
8:04
I still don't get why they have all them, but it's true.
8:05
So getting to know the agencies in your community is critical because
8:07
they're the ones who are going to land the clients.
8:12
>>Uh-hunh (affirmative).
8:14
Whenever I do work today because now I'm a freelancer—
8:14
I do it through agencies.
8:18
Very rarely will a company bring me in directly.
8:20
So getting to know those agencies is a very important step because if they—
8:22
especially—at least I know from my agency days—
8:27
once you're in with an agency,
8:29
if you're delivering really good work,
8:31
>>Yeah.
8:32
they'll come back to you.
8:33
They'll be like, "Hey, so-and-so did that project for us."
8:33
"Let's go back to him or her and bring them in again"—
8:35
because it's easier than trying to find somebody new.
8:37
Uh-hunh (affirmative).
8:40
So if you get into those—
8:41
start going to those networking or look for agencies.
8:42
Every city in the world has agencies—even small towns now have agencies.
8:43
Find them and get to know them because it's a great way to get in—
8:47
because they'll deal with all the red tape.
8:51
They'll just hire you for—"I need your skill-set for this." >>Right.
8:52
"Go."
8:55
If you can get in, you're golden.
8:57
So working with big clients—
8:59
what are the expectations like when you're working with big clients because—
9:02
big clients/small clients—there's definitely an expectation from them for you
9:05
on what you should be delivering.
9:11
Right.
9:13
I can imagine with some of the big clients,
9:14
you're talking about timelines that could
9:16
be much longer or much more in
9:18
advance of whatever this particular project will launch.
9:21
Right.
9:24
What are the differences between the bigger and smaller projects and their
9:24
expectations of someone that's coming in.
9:28
It's an interesting question because it depends on the client, of course.
9:30
Obviously, it depends.
9:34
Uh-hunh (affirmative).
9:35
But when you're dealing with a half-million dollar budget on a project,
9:35
you can be sure they're paying close attention.
9:39
That timeline is critical.
9:41
A lot of my background was in entertainment projects.
9:43
So whether it was launching True Blood for HBO or doing a Shark Week project—
9:46
we had a very finite—
9:51
we're doing this 6 to 8 weeks.
9:52
This project—it's happening.
9:54
The show is premiering.
9:56
You don't have any—you know—
9:56
Yeah.
9:58
scope creep is going to happen, and you can't escape it.
9:58
How are going to deliver?
10:01
So it's very—the level—the bar is raised.
10:02
You've got to really step up your game.
10:07
The other thing, too, is realize that sometimes with bigger clients—
10:08
one of the downfalls or the troubles with it
10:12
is they've got more red tape.
10:15
They've got more lawyers.
10:16
There's more departments that have to approve.
10:18
If you're working with a smaller start-up—
10:19
Uh-hunh.
10:21
—or a non-profit or something,
10:21
they don't usually have that many hoops to jump through.
10:23
You know who to call to get the answer.
10:25
The biggest drawback, especially on things like design and development,
10:28
is there's usually more people that need to say,
10:32
"Yes, that looks right,"—
10:34
Right.
10:36
—with a bigger company.
10:36
So, thus, you've got to be ready for that timeline of that approval that you asked
10:36
to have done in 2 days ends up taking 5.
10:41
Of course, that pushes off—that's why having a good project manager
10:44
or having those good project management skills—
10:47
>>Yeah.
10:49
—is critical with working with a bigger client.
10:50
So in your personal experience—
10:52
>>Okay.
10:55
—do you have a preference?
10:56
Bigger clients?
10:58
Smaller clients?
10:58
I know—I mean bigger risk, bigger reward.
10:59
Ugh—
11:01
But I know there's a lot that you like about working with those smaller companies—
11:02
people just getting started—
11:08
Yeah.
11:09
—or kind of a more intimate relationship you can have with them.
11:10
Do you have a preference?
11:13
It goes back and forth.
11:14
Don't get me wrong.
11:15
We all love having those big clients on our resume.
11:15
It's hot to say big client X.
11:17
That feels good, plus it's good.
11:20
It's good for your business.
11:22
>>Yeah.
11:22
Plus—I'll answer it this way.
11:23
I prefer to work with a company who's willing to do the project right.
11:26
I don't care if they're big or little.
11:30
I've worked with them both where they say,
11:32
"I'm paying you to do this."
11:34
You say, "This is how it's done."
11:35
They actually listen.
11:36
Sometimes they don't.
11:37
Even though they pay you, they're like,
11:38
"No. No. We're going to do it this way."
11:39
That drives me nuts.
11:41
But I do love—you know, I've got a passion for the non-profit sector—
11:43
for the education—
11:47
for the little start-up that's trying to save the world.
11:48
Those hungry—if the company is hungry to do that project,
11:50
those are the ones I love doing it for.
11:53
There's less headaches, and they're willing to let you do that stuff.
11:55
Then on the flip-side, I remember working with Coke,
11:59
which is the biggest brand in the world.
12:01
We were, thankfully—the department we were working with was willing to
12:02
let us do what we wanted to and innovate.
12:06
It was really—I'm still friends years later with the manager,
12:07
who is no longer at Coke.
12:11
But we're still good friends because we built that friendship.
12:12
Anytime you can get to that level—that takes time.
12:16
But if you can work with a client who actually puts some trust in you,
12:18
and that takes a lot of back and forth,
12:21
and you've got to earn that trust,
12:24
especially when you're talking about big checks coming your way.
12:25
You've got to balance that out.
12:28
Yeah.
12:28
That was going to be my next question, too.
12:29
>>Oh.
12:31
How do you maintain that relationship?
12:31
Because I know if you hook a big fish, right—
12:33
>>Yeah.
12:37
And you successfully complete a project,
12:37
the idea is if we do one project well,
12:40
maybe we can do some more.
12:44
I mean—we can do some—
12:45
Yeah.
12:45
You know—go bigger budget, bigger project.
12:46
But is the relationship really the more important—kind of the more powerful?
12:48
>>It's crucial.
12:54
It's crucial.
12:55
Face it.
12:56
No matter who it is.
12:56
Nobody works for the same company forever.
12:57
>>Right.
12:59
Fifty years ago you worked—our parents worked at one company their whole life.
13:00
Today whoever you're working with is going to go some place else.
13:03
The other thing, too, is—related to this—
13:06
it's not just the person you're working directly with.
13:09
It's all those underlings, as well.
13:11
There's been people who have been interns on projects
13:12
who later go on to launch their own companies.
13:15
>>Oh, right. Yeah.
13:17
Stay in touch with everybody.
13:18
Send an email once in a while.
13:19
Say hello.
13:21
"Hey, just checking in."
13:22
You know—I go to events.
13:24
I see people—
13:25
"Hey, what are you working on?"
13:26
Stay in touch because you never know
13:27
when that person is going to come back and say,
13:28
"Oh, you're still doing that?"
13:30
"Oh, I didn't know that."
13:31
Plus, it still happens to this day, especially in the design and development field,
13:33
people are going to ask about—
13:37
"Hey, who do you use?"
13:39
"Who did your website?"
13:40
I do it all the time.
13:41
I don't—I have people I stay in touch with, but recently I was looking
13:41
for a new web design, and I actually asked my friends.
13:45
I put it out there.
13:48
I said, "Hey, who are you using?"
13:49
I had a bunch of —relationships are crucial.
13:51
Keep those up.
13:54
Don't just do the project and then run away.
13:55
Even if it goes bad, stay in touch.
13:58
It's a little different approach, but stay in touch with—
14:00
Yeah.
14:03
—everybody.
14:03
So for those people out there—whether they be designers or developers
14:04
or really anyone that has considered staring their own business.
14:08
>>Yeah.
14:12
You've been through this a few times.
14:13
>>Yeah.
14:15
What kind of words of advice do you have?
14:15
Is there like one thing that you wish you could have told yourself
14:19
the first time you started a business or
14:21
is there just one thing that if you don't do this you are just going to be—
14:23
Yeah.
14:27
>>—in for trouble.
14:28
I guess figure out what it is you like doing—actually, worse—better—
14:29
figure out what you don't like doing.
14:34
>>Okay.
14:36
Like me, I hate the numbers.
14:36
I hate them.
14:37
I hate Excel spreadsheets.
14:38
Thankfully, my—find a business partner.
14:40
Find someone to work with you who likes those things.
14:42
>>Uh-hunh (affirmative).
14:44
It's crucial because there's going to be things you just don't like doing.
14:45
Starting a business is hard.
14:48
It's long hours.
14:50
It's lots of hustling.
14:51
It's a lot of work.
14:52
So figure out what you don't like doing.
14:53
Then on the flip-side, too.
14:55
Be ready for growth and realize that growth is the scariest thing.
14:57
Because to grow you have to spend money.
15:01
You start hiring people.
15:03
Uh-hunh (affirmative).
15:04
You're like, "Whoa! We've got to protect our bank—."
15:05
It's—that's the scariest part.
15:07
The first time we did that was the scariest move ever.
15:08
I don't think people realize just how scary.
15:11
It sounds exciting.
15:13
"Ooh, we're hiring people."
15:14
Uh-hunh.
15:15
But that brings all kinds of new taxes.
15:16
Yeah.
15:19
Finally, make sure you have a good lawyer and a good accountant.
15:19
You cannot go wrong.
15:22
Make your lawyer and your accountant your best friends in the world.
15:23
>>Uh-hunh (affirmative).
15:26
Because they're the ones that are going to keep you out of jail.
15:27
It'll keep you out of trouble and headaches.
15:29
>>Yeah.
15:31
So make sure you have a good one of both of those.
15:31
You recently started a new company—
15:33
>>Uh-hunh (affirmative).
15:36
—the end of last year—The Cleon Foundation.
15:36
>>Yeah.
15:39
I know that this is a much more personal
15:39
>>Yeah.
15:42
—sort of mission for you.
15:42
Can you tell us about the Cleon Foundation, why you started it,
15:44
and what your hopes are?
15:47
Yeah.
15:48
The Cleon Foundation is a company—
15:48
we're focused on making the world a better place through creativity.
15:51
It's a big goal. >>Uh-hunh (affirmative).
15:54
But what I want to do is—I realize that companies of all sizes
15:55
need to be socially responsible.
15:59
They need to give back to their communities and the world around them.
16:01
So The Cleon Foundation's goal is to go into companies and teach them,
16:03
motivate them, and figure out what works for them.
16:08
So going into big companies and developing a social responsibility
16:11
program for them—a social good program for them.
16:14
But then on the flip-side, working with those small non-profits who are—
16:17
whether it's a solar company,
16:20
or a BioLite stove—
16:22
people making the world a better place.
16:24
Going to—I went to Guyana last year with The ONE campaign.
16:26
I saw poverty to a level I'd never seen,
16:30
but I also saw amazing opportunities out there in the world where little changes,
16:33
whether it's getting sustainable energy,
16:37
whether it's getting better vaccines and global healthcare—
16:39
whatever it is—
16:42
there's all these things going on.
16:43
So I wanted to start a—
16:44
I debated—
16:45
do I call it—is a non-profit, is it a company?
16:46
Enough people said, "C.C., no, no, no."
16:48
"Make it a company so people can hire you to help them make the world a better place."
16:50
It's exciting.
16:55
It's only a couple months in,
16:56
and I'm just starting.
16:57
We'll see where it goes.
16:58
But I'm determined to make it work.
17:00
I named it after my grandfather.
17:02
My wife—when I started it—she said,
17:03
"Is this another 2-year project, 3-year project? What is this?"—
17:06
having been through this before.
17:08
I said, "No, no. no. This is the legacy."
17:10
So I have to make it work.
17:12
I'm excited about it.
17:13
Nice.
17:15
So how can we follow you?
17:15
How can we follow The Cleon Foundation—
17:17
Sure.
17:19
learn about what you're doing?
17:19
The easiest place is cc-chapman.com.
17:20
That's where I am online.
17:23
There's links to everything there.
17:25
It's cleonfoundation.com.
17:26
It's C-L-E-O-N—foundation.com.
17:28
But cc-chapman.com is the easy way or cc_chapman on Twitter.
17:30
All right.
17:33
Very cool.
17:34
Thanks for coming, man.
17:35
Thanks for having me.
17:35
Thank you.
17:36
Author C.C. Chapman, author of "Amazing Things Will Happen"
17:37
and founder of The Cleon Foundation.
17:40
Thanks for joining us once again here on Treehouse Friends.
17:42
See ya next time.
17:45
[? music playing ?]
17:46
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